The Doctor In The TARDIS

Travels In Time And Space => The Almost People => Topic started by: Saber on May 28, 2011, 08:34:14 pm



Title: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Saber on May 28, 2011, 08:34:14 pm
It's only just clicked with me. The Doctor's switched places, so she must have told the real Doctor that he is going to die and that she saw it because he invited them to watch.

Not sure where I am going with this exactly, but surely it's important


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: poprockgeek on May 28, 2011, 08:37:58 pm
Yeah he knows - he said something about it but I can't remember what. Will have to re-watch.

And yeah I think it will definitely be important.


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Oh-Wise-One on May 28, 2011, 08:41:20 pm
Thing is, we knew he must have found out somehow and at some point in order to set up the events of the past in which they see him die. It was way too throwaway though in this episode so I think it will be addressed on a larger scale at a later date


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Exterminate on May 28, 2011, 08:55:00 pm
So if it was the real Doctor she told, then it was the real Doctor who strangled her?

When did they change places anyway? I thought it was when they kept ducking behind that console, but didnt that come after?


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: poprockgeek on May 28, 2011, 08:56:50 pm
No that was before the strangling.

I assumed it was when they were behind the console as well - can't think where they could have done it earlier.


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Exterminate on May 28, 2011, 08:59:38 pm
So even still, if the swap had taken place, why strangle her?


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: poprockgeek on May 28, 2011, 09:07:26 pm
To make her believe he was the fake? Possibly  :-\


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Aneurin on May 28, 2011, 09:14:42 pm
So even still, if the swap had taken place, why strangle her?
To make her believe he was the fake? Possibly  :-\

It was an odd way to try and convince her though, especially as she seemed quite convinced already.


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: poprockgeek on May 28, 2011, 09:16:28 pm
Hmm ... maybe they just wanted a stronger reaction out of her - they certainly got it.


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Aneurin on May 28, 2011, 09:26:35 pm
Yea, you're probably right.

PRG for some reason I just can't bring myself to ever disagree with you. It always feels wrong :P ;D


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: poprockgeek on May 28, 2011, 09:27:58 pm
Really?! I'm sure you'll find something  :)


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Aneurin on May 28, 2011, 09:29:42 pm
Haha probably :P


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Peri-Peri on May 28, 2011, 10:26:38 pm
Well the Doctor has been acting a little out of character all series, so perhaps it isnt so shocking that he decided to throttle her


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Roranicus on May 28, 2011, 10:58:55 pm
Yeah he knows - he said something about it but I can't remember what. Will have to re-watch.

Was it when Amy asks what happens next and the Doctor says something like:

Well, my death arrives, I suppose. But this one, we're not invited to.


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: poprockgeek on May 28, 2011, 11:03:44 pm
Yeah that was it  :)


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: 2cajuman2 on May 29, 2011, 12:35:38 am
My time to add screenies into the mix -

Amy telling him:

(http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr124/2cajuman2/DWS6/dwapcombo.png)

Doctor quote:

(http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr124/2cajuman2/DWS6/dwap7.png)


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: The Doc on May 29, 2011, 12:01:15 pm
This I think has got to be the catalyst that makes the events of the first episode come into play. We knew it was never going to be a well kept secret. The Doctor had to know that he was going to die in order to set it all up in the first place.

This episode though has proved to me without a doubt that it isnt a Ganger we see dying on the beach. That Doctor was zapped and began a regen but there was no sign of melting or anything like that. I could be wrong, but I think that is now ruled out


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Nyki on May 29, 2011, 02:21:28 pm
Well the Doctor has been acting a little out of character all series, so perhaps it isnt so shocking that he decided to throttle her

Well, as I mentioned in another thread, I think the Doctor had scanned Amy and knew she was Flesh by then, which might have affected his reaction to her.


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: 2cajuman2 on May 29, 2011, 03:51:02 pm
And he was angry at her telling him, we knew the Doc would get angry when he found out, he was pretending to be Flesh so he was outbalancing on purpose and then he felt the Flesh questioning "Why?" and just flipped, I think it complemented the Amy believing in the other, however damaging for the future, they needed a moment where Amy lost trust in real Doc and trusted fake Doc to have the emotional farewell later on

Sorry, must stop dissecting the reasoning and plot point


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Tardis-Console on May 29, 2011, 03:57:37 pm
And he was angry at her telling him, we knew the Doc would get angry when he found out, he was pretending to be Flesh so he was outbalancing on purpose and then he felt the Flesh questioning "Why?" and just flipped, I think it complemented the Amy believing in the other, however damaging for the future, they needed a moment where Amy lost trust in real Doc and trusted fake Doc to have the emotional farewell later on

Sorry, must stop dissecting the reasoning and plot point

I don't agree with this at all! It had nothing to do with Amy losing trust in the real Doctor. The whole point of the conversation was that she was planning on using the Ganger Doctor as a decoy so that he, the one she believed wasn't properly the Doctor, would go and die in the place of her Doctor. It was emphasizing how differently she saw the two


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: 2cajuman2 on May 29, 2011, 03:59:54 pm
You're talking about the Amy talk, I'm talking about the Doctor talk... And Amy did lose trust in "Smith"


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Tardis-Console on May 29, 2011, 04:08:40 pm
No, Amy didnt know that they had switched. As far as she was concerned she was talking to the Ganger Doctor when she was outside the room and mentioned the 'real' Doctor dying, not realising it was actually him that she was talking to. Its the Ganger Doctor she ran to after that encounter, thinking it was the 'real' Doctor. She never lost trust in the real Doctor, as you said, because she never knew that they had switched. That's why at the end she said about him being twice the man, because she realised she had been duped and that they weren't that different after all


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: 2cajuman2 on May 29, 2011, 04:10:41 pm
You're assuming I meant the wrong way around, she had to lose trust in Smith who was the real Doc so she could have the emotional scene at the end with Doc who was fake Doc

Plot point


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Tardis-Console on May 29, 2011, 04:38:54 pm
I'm not assuming anything. I'm replying to your points. You are saying that she had to lose trust, which ok, fair enough, but why? Why did she have to lose trust in the 'real' Doctor? Nothing in the episode indicated that she did. Perhaps I am wrong, but you are not saying anything to back it up that she 'lost trust'. You also don't seem able to accept the fact that perhaps the reason she was able to have the emotional scene at the end with the Ganger Doctor is because after spending time with him (and not realising he wasn't the real Doc), she then realised that they were actually just the same and she had been wrong in her opinions. She never needed to lose trust in the 'real' Doctor to come to that realisation and have that emotional moment, because she never twigged on that she wasn't always with the 'real' Doctor. It was the realisation that she had been with the Ganger all along without realising that led to her acceptance of him


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: 2cajuman2 on May 29, 2011, 04:53:52 pm
(http://i476.photobucket.com/albums/rr124/2cajuman2/DWS6/dwap10.png)

Amy: We can't trust you


She did need to lose trust, because the best emotional rush comes from realising you were completely wrong


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Tardis-Console on May 29, 2011, 05:03:29 pm
Yes, but she said to what she thought was the Ganger Doctor. It wasn't, but she didn't know that. Why is that so hard to understand. From Amy's POV, she never lost trust in the 'real' Doctor, because as far as she was aware they hadn't swapped places!! It would be like my brother logging into my account on here and having a conversation with you. As far as you are aware you are talking to me, but that's because you don't know that someone else is behind the wheel. Amy thought she was talking to the Ganger Doctor. Amy thought she was telling the Ganger Doctor 'We can't trust you'. Which she did, because as a Ganger, he could have gone mental like Jen. What reason did she have for not trusting what the real Doctor? None. Then, as I have already said, she had that emotional scene with the Ganger at the end because after learning that she had been duped she then realised that they were so similar that she didn't even know they had swapped places. She never lost trust in what she believed was 'her' Doctor.

I've put this down with as much logic as I can muster. I have explained fully the how's and why's whereas you have not, but yet you continue to argue about it.


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: The Doc on May 29, 2011, 05:21:10 pm
Right guys, You have both had your say so agree to disagree and move on. The thread is descending into a two man show and veering off topic rapidly. Post your opinions and ideas by all means, but stay on topic and remain civil or I will lock the thread


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Peri-Peri on May 29, 2011, 05:55:18 pm
Ok, so back to the original topic, I have been chatting to my friend earlier today about the possible fallout from this and whether or not it will be addressed in the next episode. On the one hand, the Doctor isnt exactly known for biting his tongue when he is angry and so is likely to bring it up, but on the other hand with so much going on next episode there is the chance that it might not be addressed at all until after the split.

Also, because we don't know for certain when Amy was cloned, we can't know for certain if she now even knows that the Doctor is going to die, though I suppose that this is less of a big plot point


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: poprockgeek on May 29, 2011, 06:11:46 pm
I've assumed that she will have all the Ganger's memories because they were connected. Still I guess that remains to be seen - all will be revealed ... hopefully  :P


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Peri-Peri on May 29, 2011, 06:25:31 pm
I suppose it would make sense to have a sort of two way connection because the humans at the factory would need to know that their Gangers were doing what they were supposed to be doing. Although as the thing with Cleaves showed, they were intuitive but didnt necessarily share new memories made after the gangers were created otherwise they would have all known what the other was up to


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: poprockgeek on May 29, 2011, 06:33:59 pm
Buzzer certainly knew what had happened to his Ganger at the start of the first ep - not just that he'd died but that it had been caused by Jen taking a swing at him. After the connection was severed though it was different - they could only make predictions or even guesses based on previous shared experience.

The fact that the Doctor told her they were coming for her implies he thinks she can hear him.

I would expect this to be settled quite early on either way though - can be easily settled through refs to what's happened in the last few eps.


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Peri-Peri on May 29, 2011, 06:36:37 pm
Oh yea I forgot about the buzzer thing. You are probably right then in that case


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Saber on May 29, 2011, 07:04:49 pm
I would imagine, if for no other reason at all, that they will have Amy know about his death just so they don't have to go over it all again, though that could also be a good way to recap for the audience if it occurs after the split this year


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Saber on May 29, 2011, 07:07:36 pm
Sorry, please could someone move that post ^^ it was meant to be a reply to Peri and PRG's conversation in another thread :-\


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: poprockgeek on May 29, 2011, 07:17:20 pm
Done  :)


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Saber on May 29, 2011, 07:20:27 pm
Thanks PopRockGeek :)


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: thefifthdoctor on May 29, 2011, 08:14:45 pm
Well the Doctor has been acting a little out of character all series, so perhaps it isnt so shocking that he decided to throttle her

Maybe he was channeling The Sixth Doctor  ;)


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Nyki on May 30, 2011, 12:56:59 am
Buzzer certainly knew what had happened to his Ganger at the start of the first ep - not just that he'd died but that it had been caused by Jen taking a swing at him. After the connection was severed though it was different - they could only make predictions or even guesses based on previous shared experience.

Buzzer actually said that he'd watched the video of what happened to his ganger.


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: TheDoctorDonna on May 30, 2011, 01:14:19 am
Wasn't the Buzzer they bumped into in the corridor another clone though?


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: poprockgeek on May 30, 2011, 09:58:50 am
Buzzer certainly knew what had happened to his Ganger at the start of the first ep - not just that he'd died but that it had been caused by Jen taking a swing at him. After the connection was severed though it was different - they could only make predictions or even guesses based on previous shared experience.

Buzzer actually said that he'd watched the video of what happened to his ganger.

In the corridor or later on? I've just watched the corridor scene again & the only thing he mentions having seen are holo ads about claiming compensation.

Wasn't the Buzzer they bumped into in the corridor another clone though?

Possible I guess - I guess I've just made the assumption that he is the real one. If he is another Ganger though it doesn't entirely undermine my theory of a the real person having the memories if the Ganger at this stage because he knows what happened to the previous Ganger & the only connection between them is the real Buzzer (the previous Ganger at this point having been dissolved in acid).


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: super vigilante on May 30, 2011, 03:32:56 pm
Hey there, this is all a bit new to me, but it seems glaringly obvious that there is a direct link between the flesh and their human counterparts right up until the power surge. The humans are directly in control of them "like a forklift truck". When Amy's ganger is "decommissioned" by the Doctor the link is severed and she goes back to her real body, hence the sudden awakening and the previous visions of the eye-patch woman. Amy's mind has been in the ganger all along so she will still have all those memories, because her mind was there even if her body wasn't.


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: poprockgeek on May 30, 2011, 03:40:54 pm
Nicely put. That would be essentially how I see it too  :)


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Nyki on May 31, 2011, 01:34:29 am
Buzzer certainly knew what had happened to his Ganger at the start of the first ep - not just that he'd died but that it had been caused by Jen taking a swing at him. After the connection was severed though it was different - they could only make predictions or even guesses based on previous shared experience.

Buzzer actually said that he'd watched the video of what happened to his ganger.

In the corridor or later on? I've just watched the corridor scene again & the only thing he mentions having seen are holo ads about claiming compensation.

Ah, that's possible.  I'll have to check on rewatching.


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Amuro on May 31, 2011, 09:33:13 am
Hey there, this is all a bit new to me, but it seems glaringly obvious that there is a direct link between the flesh and their human counterparts right up until the power surge. The humans are directly in control of them "like a forklift truck". When Amy's ganger is "decommissioned" by the Doctor the link is severed and she goes back to her real body, hence the sudden awakening and the previous visions of the eye-patch woman. Amy's mind has been in the ganger all along so she will still have all those memories, because her mind was there even if her body wasn't.

Exactly, so sick of a wide variety of people saying this episode was bad because the Doctor killed a Ganger after saying how sacred they are. The replica Amy was not a proper Ganger as the flesh was only being kept active from the connection to Amy. Without that connection, it reverted back to the flesh. What was the Doctor meant to do, never break the link and leave the (pregnant) Amy to her fate?


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: chrissymarieb on May 31, 2011, 04:12:57 pm
I agree with the above.  I think it was even stated in one of the episodes that they get into the harness and sort of 'drive' the ganger and then when something happens to the ganger and it dies or whatever, the link is severed and the person in the harness wakes up.   


Title: Re: The Doctor Knows
Post by: Mind_Robber on May 31, 2011, 04:43:00 pm
As sacred as Gangers are, the Ganger Amy had to be decommisioned. The real Amy was in danger, lying pregnant somewhere and he feels responsible for her not just because it was travelling with him that put her in danger (nothing new there), but because he has her husband on board, and if anything happened to her the Doctor would be the first person Rory blamed. And who knows what Rory would have done to punish the Doctor.

So as sacred as Gangers/the Flesh are, fake Amy had to be sacrificed so that the real Amy could be awake to give birth, and the Doctor and Rory could save her