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41  Travels In Time And Space / The Crusade / Re: General Spoilery Discussion on: January 24, 2011, 03:23:25 pm
There are whispers going around that this years finale is going to be set within just one episode, and the usual two parter will be eps 11 & 12. I don't know for sure if it is true, or if they would all be linked similar to the Series 3 finale, but I thought I would mention it just in case Smiley

I would really like this to be true. As there will be a massive 2 parter in the middle of the series, it would be great for the last episode to just be a really great episode rather than something with a massive set up first part and a huge second part that resolves everything. I would love it if Amy and Rory decided they were leaving, and they went on one last adventure with the Doctor and it's just a stand-alone story.

This would also make sense as Moffat has said he would only be writing 5 episodes and if we already know he is doing two 2-parters, would make sense the finale is only one part.
42  Travels In Time And Space / The Crusade / Re: Mid Season Cliffhanger revealed!?! on: January 20, 2011, 03:17:37 pm
Surely if there was any doubt who the father was, the Doctor could instantaneously check with the Sonic? To have set up the sonic, as well as other equipment on the tardis,  as being capable of so many things and then have a story where they don't know who the father of a child is would be ridiculous. I'm pretty sure 10th Doc checked Jenny's DNA with the sonic anyway to verify?

I am certain there is no truth to the 'baby daddy' story. I think this is probably a combination of rumours about her being pregnant and Moff saying that the twist will be a revelation about some element of the Doctor's and Amy's relationship.
43  Travels In Time And Space / The Crusade / Re: Filming Reports on: January 17, 2011, 11:24:51 am
Didn't Moff say he was filming alternate endings for episode 7 to throw people off the twist? Maybe this is part of that? Really hope the Sontaran's don't make an appearence, unless something major is done to make them good again. I see them a B (or even C?) grade enemies after thier re-design, rubbish handling in series 4 and appearances in SJA.
44  Travels In Time And Space / Series 5 / Re: The Beast Below (over)Analysis on: January 17, 2011, 09:55:45 am
It's true that Amy does repeat some points at the end, but I thought that was more to do with how she comes to understand the Doctor rather than the situation on Starship UK. I think the only reason it was repeated was so they could have the scene with the Doctor and Amy looking out into space after the conclusion, which was important for the relationship between them.

Still, I think that although it seems very obvious where they are going with the nature of the Government of Starship UK, by the end they are presented as being reasonably benign. They explain why they have kept the secret from the Queen, but never why they feed the children to the whale or why they need to use the Smilers. It goes from the Government being an the corrupt rulers of a police state to them just trying to protect the population, and I can't help but feel that the story seemed to be heading to a much more darker version of the government that was scrapped for whatever reason (yes, the episode being cut down is a good one, but in the DWM special episode guides, it references all the bits that where cut and there isn't much that that would change this.)
45  Travels In Time And Space / Series 5 / The Beast Below (over)Analysis on: January 14, 2011, 09:54:38 am
I have always really got a kick out of this episode, but acknowledge some of it's flaws. Mainly, I feel certain aspects of the story aren't fully explained. I re-watched it last night, however, and started to think that there is something much deeper under the surface that might explain this. Basically, I think the episode is a political jab against the state of Britain and the west and that Moffat had to tone down certain elements of the episode either because he thought it was too controversial, or because he was pressured by others.

Of course, to an extent this is obvious. The Doctor says of the voting system that it's typical of democracy. People are told the facts, but also that solving the problems behind them might make their lives less comfortable, so they vote for the easiest option and forget the problems and lessons learnt along the way. This is certainly true now, where, for example, in the North of England massive cuts are again happening under a Tory government, re-creating the problems of the past.

But I feel that this wasn't explained as clearly as it could have been. I think that Liz 10 is our entry point to the mindset of the whole of starship UK. They start to notice something is wrong, ignore it at first, but gradually start to raise questions. Of course the government could oppress the people, but that isn't the easiest way. Instead, they relied on human nature. Once, around every 5 years, the people start to question their situation, they are told the truth and given the chance to ignore it. Once they have to face the consequences and actually solve the problems, people prefare to keep the status quo. The people who do protest are dealt with silently by being fed to the beast.

Why the Smilers? These are basically the 'thought police'. They check that no one starts noticing the problems and, if they find someone doing so, they give them another chance to vote, knowing they will choose to forget. If anyone does start to cause a problem, they eliminate them for the 'greater good'. Although people don't remember what the smilers do (they have chosen to forget) there is a general fear about them that remains. This is why the doctor recognises a 'police state' when in fact the people seem reasonably free.

Finally, why are the children fed to the beast? I think this is where the polemic really comes into play. Children who are struggling, instead of being given support, are simply fed to the beast to become labour. I think a Marxist perspective is useful here. It symbolises how the working classes 'hold up' society like the star whale and are oppressed in order for the middle and upper class to go on with their lives. Instead of solving the problems caused by poor labour conditions and povety, those benefiting from the status quo choose to ignore it (this could also be seen as the relationship between rich nations and poorer nations). When children don't show the values the higher classes believe are needed to benefit from the status quo, they are ignored and left to become the oppressed workforce (we see this briefly at the end). even the rulers of Britain choose to ignore the plight of the people in order to maintain their position.

I really do think all of this is strongly implied, but sometimes not explicitly said. This is why some people question why the smilers are there and why the children are used as labour (and I acknowledge this isn't made clear in the episode). I can't help but feel that Moffat couldn't, for whatever reason, make these points explicitly. Ultimately, it seems a bit confusing because the government is presented as reasonably benevolent at the end despite the use of evil robots and trying to kill children! I think this was Moffat taking his foot off the pedal at the end to prevent the episode being seen a polemic. Saying these things about alien worlds is fine, but saying it about Britain, about our government and our royal family was probably a step to far for a family show on the BBC.

But, I really do believe this is what the episode is getting across, and so I see it as one of the bravest and clever episodes of recent years. I love when the Doctor says what he always does is 'protest'. Moffat uses this story to get across that element in the doctors character; that he stands for equality, hates oppression of any kind and always, ALWAYS, questions the system. That's why I love the Doctor, and it's captured perfectly in this episode!
46  Travels In Time And Space / The Greatest Show In The Galaxy / Re: Women in Doctor Who on: January 14, 2011, 09:18:19 am
I must admit, I haven't seen the Girl in the Fireplace for a while so assumed the article was right, even if it seemed very odd and not to match up with my memories. You're right, it really mis-represents the Doctor's character in that episode. Also, I think the episode was part of a wider trend of showing that the 10th doctor was more emotional and, perhaps, even sexual than other Doctors.
47  Fanatical For Who / Loathing Threads / Re: Dislike for Russell T Davies on: January 14, 2011, 09:14:32 am
Yeah, it also took me a while to get into Nu Who. A lot of people lay a lot of acclaim on Rose (the episode), but when I first saw the show was coming back I saw the burping wheelie bin and plastic Mickey and despaired that they had done that to the show. Then I tuned in to Aliens in London and couldn't believe they had made it so bad with farting aliens (looking back, that two parter seemed more like a trial run for Sarah Jane Adventures). I heard there was going to be a regeneration and Daleks in the finale so tuned in, only to switch off when there was robot Anne Robinson and Trinney and Sussanah (I had to google those people as I couldn't remember them...but earth in thousands of years still will?!). I fully blame Russell for making it so hard for me to get back into the series, and for making the show a laughing matter amongst most of my friends (as if I hadn't had enough stick for liking classic Who thanks to clips only ever referencing dodgy sea devils and bubblewrap villains!)

Ironically, it was only after seeing Empty Child/Doctor Dances and Girl in the Fireplace that really made me want to seriously get back into it. Still, series 5 was the first time where I really felt I loved the current Dr Who again.
48  Fanatical For Who / Loathing Threads / Re: Dislike for Moffat on: January 14, 2011, 09:06:20 am
I think he has run the show into the ground personally
Despite TPO being great, the Big Bang was really quite terrible - how does a plothole as big as the Doctor letting himself out of the Pandorica get past the initial script-stage?

How does a plothole as big as Sally Sparrow talking to a Doctor in real time through DVDs he recorded earlier gets past the initial script-stage? The answer, is the same. Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey. Which I take it to mean (and I realize this is my personal take), that it doesn't matter, as long as it's entertaining.


To be fair though, things like this are played with in almost every sci fi show/film that deals with time travel, including classic Dr Who. Most just see it as part of the fun of playing around with the concept of time travel, which seems to have many contradictions inherent to it. If we're talking real science, the concept of time travel itself is paradoxical in many, many ways so the whole of Dr Who is a plothole!
49  The Leisure Hive / Paradise Towers / Re: The Copy/Paste Game on: January 13, 2011, 03:40:49 pm
http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/events/displayevent.aspx?eventID=4233&venue=10
50  Travels In Time And Space / The Crusade / Re: New Running Order For Series 6 on: January 13, 2011, 12:36:08 pm
I'm really disappointed that this has been announced as it really spoils the fun of the big cliffhanger. So we now essentially know that Amy and Rory survive, they are still together and the massive revelation concerning the relationship between Amy and the Doctor presumably has no effect on the events of the following episode? Maybe they will re-shoot some scenes that change this, but over all I think this takes a lot of the fun out of the guessing game. I too wouldn't be surprised if it is dud episode, and so they moved it so the buzz would remain good about the series overall. Remember how damaging Victory of the Daleks was to the overall buzz for series 5?
51  Travels In Time And Space / The Crusade / Re: General Spoilery Discussion on: January 13, 2011, 10:14:24 am
I think Moff was just making a joke with the popping back to the past thing (as the tweeter said "in the future").

Also, I've been thinking about the silence/silents. They are tall, seem to wear smart suits and are, in some way, associated with silence. Remind you of anyone?



For those who might not know, these monsters from Buffy made everyone silent...To be honest they sound like the type of monster Moff would come up with!

Wonder if this may have been drawn on from inspiration. Karen recently said what the new monsters do is horrible...maybe it's something to do with stealing the voice of someone? More likely, I can very much imagine the monsters themselves to be silent (hopefully the Moff won't have them talking with the voice of their victims...again!).
52  Fanatical For Who / Loathing Threads / Re: Dislike for Russell T Davies on: January 13, 2011, 09:06:55 am
Hey DAK!

I liked Tennant's doctor for a long time, mainly due to his energy and enthusiasm. I felt, though, that by the end it was made out that this energy was just a cover for the pain inside and that it was totally forced. I'm not sure if this was due to acting or writing, or it was actually intentional in RTDs plans, but it made it seem like the good elements of the character weren't natural. I really hated how he made the hurt suffered by his companions his own and was really self centered by the end. The one plus of this was that it made Waters of Mars a very interesting episode as it dealt with this.

With 11, I feel like the energy and enthusiasm is completely authentic. Is it just me who imagines Matt's Doctor would be EXCITED by regeneration rather than dreading it? It was a bit drawn out how Tennant lingered while regenerating, 'not wanting to leave' and going back over his experiences. When 11 is threatened with being wiped out of existence, he tries to save himself but then resigns to his fate as he 'hates re-runs'. I really loved this contrast in character. To me, 11s version captures the character of the Doctor much more accurately (as did Eccleston).
53  Fanatical For Who / Loathing Threads / Re: Dislike for Moffat on: January 12, 2011, 04:49:32 pm
Doctor-lite River Song episode for 2011 season please! Not sure if dividing the series eliminates need for this (not really sure why it's needed, only that it's to do with Christmas specials) but it would be awesome to develop her character in isolation to her relationship with the Doctor. Same could be said for Amy.
54  Fanatical For Who / Loathing Threads / Re: Dislike for Moffat on: January 12, 2011, 04:42:12 pm
Yikes - stupid comments there. Depends on personality - not gender! Always disliked coupling anyway - no wonder if it's based on such 'logic'. To be honest though, I don't feel this attitude has carried over into Who.

I kinda do--and it's a huge problem for me. Unless Amy and River's chars improve (and no more wifey crap with River) I can't see *how* it hasn't carried over.

True - River being the Doctor's wife would be lame. But you know what, I actually think Moffet is having fun with this. Everyone assumes that she will be his wife, because that's the most conventional may men and women can have very significant and long-lasting relationships. This is echoed in River making cheeky hints about this. I'd bet - and obviously I could be dead wrong - that this isn't the case at all and in fact their lives are connected in some other way that trumps the convention. Sure, Rivers death shows love and devotion for the Doctor, but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with gender, and I would love it if it didn't. I recently red an interview with the actress who played Jo Grant and she said how Jo was always willing to put her life on the line because she knew how, in the bigger picture, the Doctor was of so much more significance than her, and the universe needed him. I love that idea and, actually knowing the vital things the Doctor does in the future (stop the rebirth of the angels/save the universe, anyone?) is one hell of a motivation for River to do whatever she can to prevent 10s death.

As for Amy, there is a very good reason for her character being slightly hollow (her brain was hollowed out by the crack) and there has been numerous comments about her developing next season, so I am optimistic that this time next year these criticisms may be moot!
55  Travels In Time And Space / The Greatest Show In The Galaxy / Re: Women in Doctor Who on: January 12, 2011, 04:09:08 pm
Is it possible that the character of Rory and Amy is a deliberate response to his own embarrassment about his previous comments? He said women were needy and men didn't want to get married. In Rory and Amy we find the complete reversal of this scenario (especially in Amy's Choice, admittedly not written by Moffet). In fact, you could even say this has gone too far and damaged Amy's popularity as I know a few people who dislike her because of her lack of concern/commitment to Rory and her frequent criticisms of the Doctor (which, although echoing Donna somewhat, were miles away from Martha and Rose).

The problem with this is that it still doesn't create a well rounded character and means that popular ideas of feminine identity have still played a part in the characterisation (this time, being defined by trying to combat these ideas.) Even when Amy does get married - and by that point I don't see it as 'settling' but a choice based on love - Moffet adds in her propositions to the Doctor to show that she isn't just going to be a quiet, subservient wife.

Hopefully he will once again learn from peoples criticisms and make Amy more well-rounded in the next series. Interviews he has given suggest she has changed following the events in the last series, and Karen has alluded to this too.

I personally think River is a very mysterious, adventurous, strong and potentially dangerous female character. These descriptions are usually exclusively reserved for male characters (look at Bill in True Blood, Vampy boy in Twilight, Roland in the Dark Tower, Arny in Terminator 2, Han Solo...countless other examples). Yes, she is often reliant on the doctor in some situations - but he is the boffin! In combat situations (and often technical) she can hold her own; especially against stone daleks! The main problem with her character is that we already know how her story ends, and it is in a very unsatisfactory way, especially given what we know now. How I wish she would have survived (properly) the Library!

Finally, criticising Moffet for pairing off his female characters isn't really fair I think. I have no problem with Sally having a boyfriend - how does this undermine her character? Yes, her friend is sent back in time and is happily married, but this is important for the story as it underlines how the Angels "kill you kindly" as she has still had a full life. No, having a family isn't the only way to show a full life, but it is - in storytelling terms - a satisfying way to do so given small confines time wise and a large audience. For example, Martha being engaged is one of the key ways they communicate she is 'over' the doctor. Sure, her great career and strength should be enough to do that - but having her engaged underlines this. Also, pairing her with Mickey is quite simply fan service. The main thing that rubs me the wrong way about this problem is with Rose. Her story was based on her love for adventure, but in the end it made out that she loved the doctor, but would prefare if he could just settle down with her and have a family. For her love/passion to be vindicated, she needs the man to share to be able to devote himself to here? Doesn't sit right with her series one character to me.
56  Fanatical For Who / Loathing Threads / Re: Dislike for Moffat on: January 12, 2011, 03:46:58 pm
Moved the most recent post into its own thread, as it was off-topic to the thread.

As for the other question:

http://news.scotsman.com/doctorwho/Time-Lad-scores-with-sex.2535185.jp


"...women are needy. Men can go for longer, more happily, without women. That’s the truth. We don’t, as little boys, play at being married - we try to avoid it for as long as possible. Meanwhile women are out there hunting for husbands."

This is one of a few sources. Smiley

Yikes - stupid comments there. Depends on personality - not gender! Always disliked coupling anyway - no wonder if it's based on such 'logic'. To be honest though, I don't feel this attitude has carried over into Who.
57  Travels In Time And Space / The Greatest Show In The Galaxy / Women in Doctor Who on: January 12, 2011, 01:03:39 pm
Was looking into the points about Moffet and women and came across the article.

http://io9.com/5022250/why-steven-moffat-isnt-all-that

Its very thoughtful and raises a lot of valid points. But still, I think the overall argument is unjustified. I think you can find a lot of the problems mentioned in many sources if you look hard enough. I'm not going to argue that entertainment isn't often dominated by men, or that these type of common character traits are ok, but i don't think Moffat in particular is guilty of this. I think a similar approach to RTD's female characters would raise just as many alarm bells.

Also, as a companion piece, this article looks at the same themes, but with closer focus on the RTD era.

http://www.overthinkingit.com/2010/05/03/is-doctor-who-bad-for-women/

All really interesting points and I'd love to hear some other peoples thoughts!
58  Fanatical For Who / Loathing Threads / Re: Bored Of Ianto on: January 12, 2011, 11:23:28 am
I never bought the Jack Ianto relationship as anything more than a fling. They didn't seem to have much chemistry and I never understood why Jack would love Ianto more than anyone else (to me it always seemed he had more intense feelings for Gwen). Pointless character deaths can be annoying, but Ianto's was very moving and essential to the gravitas of the story. Jack needed to be devastated by the events to really sell it's effect. I have no objection at all to the death and think that it was actually Ianto's best contribution to the story...

On an unrelated note, I once saw the actor who plays Ianto at the green man festival (sitting on the grass in front of me) with his girlfriend and they were with the actor who plays Gwen and her boyfriend (who had his face deliberately obscured - is he someone well known?). Nice to know they were really friends Smiley!
59  Fanatical For Who / Loathing Threads / Re: Dislike for Moffat on: January 12, 2011, 11:05:51 am
I think he has run the show into the ground personally
When I watch Rose, Christmas Invasion, and Smith and Jones in comparison it makes me want to cry.

I love Moffat, so won't dwell on the points made as it's obviously an opinion a lot of people have (i'm sure you would feel the same way about my Russell T thread!) We can agree on one thing though, watching those episodes also makes me want to cry (though perhaps for different reasons!)

I just wanted to post because I was very interested about the points made about Moffat's view of women. It sounds shocking! Can you provide some more details on this, quotes, links to interviews? I would certainly like to hear more about these shocking comments!

It strikes me as doubly odd as the comments about wanting marriage and kids doesn't seem to reflect his episodes? Amy is quite the opposite, with Rory being the one wanting this and her being unsure and wanting more from life. I know she eventually does marry, but this is through her love for Rory? Also, Sally Sparrow seemed much more concerned with her own development and sense of adventure than settling down? I really can't imagine River being subservient, quite the opposite!

It's very sad that Moffat apparently holds these views, and also odd that his writing of female characters doesn't seem to reflect this (although maybe his fear of girls might explain the fact that his female characters seem to dominate their male counterparts - though I must say I prefare this to Rose and Martha's complete devotion to the Doctor).
60  Travels In Time And Space / The Greatest Show In The Galaxy / Re: Assuming they'd say yes.. Other new writers for DW on: January 12, 2011, 10:44:46 am
My absolute dream guest writer/director is actually reasonably possible: Edgar Wright. His writing/direction for Scott Pilgrim was awesome and he showed with Shaun of the Dead a brilliant ability to be serious AND funny when the time calls for it. Would love a comedy driven episode, and he would be the perfect person for it. Also, as his films tend to deal with different genres being lovingly aped, he would be a perfect fit for a genre specific Who akin to Talons etc. Visually, it could be brilliant also. He has said in an interview he would love to do it. Make it happen, Moff!
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