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My Theory of what might happen based on the double Doctor situation.

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Nanodragon8
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« on: May 24, 2011, 08:08:39 pm »

Ok, so I was thinking while I was re-watching episode five and was trying to think of an explanation as to how the doctor knows everything about everything in this episode. I mean even by the Doctors standards he seems to know way too much. Plus there are the subtle little hints and comments made by the doctor to suggest he’s already been there before. The only time this doesn’t ring true is when he’s touching the liquid flesh and he is describing the bizarre nature of the liquid. I know this is a long shot but I started thinking what if the current Doctor is the  Clone Doctor which we see born in this episode but at a later stage in his life. In this episode the following dialog can be observed.

“This is only flesh, the early stages of the technology”
“The flesh was never merely moss, these are not copies. The storm has hard wired them, they are becoming people”

If you notice he uses the word “people” instead of “human” thus not to excluding Timelords from that distinction. I realise that this is of small significance and could just be how the script was written but it’s something I picked up on and thought I’d share. None the less if you take the Doctors words as true then by that theory a Timelord Clone eventually will become a fully fledged Timelord without the clone side effects we are seeing in this episode, Same Memories, same body, same Person. In the Doctors case this would mean that his clone would effectively become the Doctor incarnate.

It would explain why he knows what’s going on though all the early experiences are new to him. It would explain why he willingly put his hand into the liquid flesh and then went back to check on its progress half way through the episode. Let’s face it the Doctor isn’t stupid enough to do all that by accident. He had to clone himself because if he hadn’t it would have created a paradox.

So at the end of episode six (assuming I am right) there will be two doctors but only one Tardis. The Clone Doctor will go with the Tardis and the Original Doctor will go to 1811 where he will do the following. He will wave to Rory and Amy through the pages of history as seen in episode one. He will live out his relationship with river and two hundred years later he will contact Amy, Rory, River and His Clone self having them meet him in a remote location in America.

So who kills him? I toyed with the idea that it could be another version of himself. He says to the spaceman “its ok, I know it’s you” it would make sense that he would because he has already been on the other end of that gun.  I know this is extensive speculation and I spent about an hour poking holes in my theory. I don’t have an explanation as to why the Doctor would do such a thing and I don’t yet have enough solid information to go on. But this would explain why the Dead Doctor didn’t have a Tardis and it would explain why he and River were up to speed on everything in her diary.

Please feel free to poke any holes in this that you think I may have missed. I’d love to discuss them and just tell me what you guys think of it. Smiley
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« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2011, 08:21:03 pm »

There's loads of things about your theories that I really love, but the biggest drawback for me, which is sort of the bottom row in the house of cards, is that I just don't buy the idea of the Doctor in the opener being a clone. Now, that's not to say its unlikely or a silly theory, just that I would hope that Moff has something a little more original up his sleeve. That said though, you have mapped it out really well and if that's the path they go down, at least its half decent, if not a little timey wimey and a bit confusing
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Nanodragon8
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« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2011, 09:07:31 pm »

I remember thinking that the doctor was a bit off when he came out of the Tardis in the first episode. The comment "River Song you bad bad girl, what have you got for me this time?" Struck me as very un-doctory and his anger at River asking him to trust him was I thought odd. But perhaps it’s just because I was already looking for a way around at that point. Also did you find it strange that Canton Everett Delaware was smiling the whole time on that beach? It wasn’t exactly a jolly topic they were talking about as the doctor lay dead on the sand.
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« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2011, 10:23:09 pm »

I like it. I'm not mad about the clone idea but if it goes like that ^^ then I'd be happy. You got some good ideas, NanoDragon Smiley
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« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2011, 10:23:40 pm »

Oh and yes, he has been very off this series. There is a thread about it around here somewhere. Its a very noticeable change
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« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2011, 10:52:06 pm »

We were talking about this idea on twitter and facebook on Saturday after the episode...

Anyway, I'm only here to back reference you to the Cassandra conversation with The Doctor in the End of the World, where they talk about people being everyone, you can't distiguish between races yes, but your point is that he says that because it would include him, they are Flesh, they aren't humans, they are "Almost People", they have a different biological structure... You are venturing in to the argument briefly addressed in Torchwood "Sleeper" and in Being Human, what makes us human? Is it our DNA? Or is it memories and what we do with our life and ultimately it boils down to, no they aren't human.


It strays in to the territory of if The Doctor has all the memories of the clone and it is indeed the clone that dies (not that I want to believe it because it is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too easy and uncomplicated) would he be considered as "definitely the Doctor"?
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River Song: Everyone knows that everyone dies. And nobody knows it like the doctor. But I do think that all the skies in all the worlds might just turn dark, if he ever accepts it.

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Nanodragon8
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« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2011, 11:15:46 pm »

I thought about the reaction it would get while I was writing this up and yes I think a lot of people would see the clone as a clone regardless of how exact in likeness he was to the original. As for it being uncomplicated I thought the clone being the one who died would have been two easy but this would be very "Doctor Who" It’s not obvious enough to be called predictable. It’s got a few crossed timelines in it and its complex enough to make your brain work but on the other hand I think your point about him being considered the doctor might be a bit of a deal breaker. It’s a bit of a risky move killing off the doctor. I really hope it’s not just the clone taking the bullet so the doctor can live on. It’s way too simplistic.
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« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2011, 11:19:24 pm »

We were talking about this idea on twitter and facebook on Saturday after the episode...

Anyway, I'm only here to back reference you to the Cassandra conversation with The Doctor in the End of the World, where they talk about people being everyone, you can't distiguish between races yes, but your point is that he says that because it would include him, they are Flesh, they aren't humans, they are "Almost People", they have a different biological structure... You are venturing in to the argument briefly addressed in Torchwood "Sleeper" and in Being Human, what makes us human? Is it our DNA? Or is it memories and what we do with our life and ultimately it boils down to, no they aren't human.


It strays in to the territory of if The Doctor has all the memories of the clone and it is indeed the clone that dies (not that I want to believe it because it is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy too easy and uncomplicated) would he be considered as "definitely the Doctor"?

They have a human biological makeup though. Or at least they are developing them, even if they didnt fully start that way. The Doctor says as much. They are becoming wholy identical to their 'human' counterparts. They are also repeatedly called clones, which would make them biologically identical to whatever they were cloned from, which in this case was humans. They are essentially humans, even if not conventionally.

As far as clone Doctor goes, I'm on the fence about it being the one who dies in the opening episode. One one hand it would be a good way, as the OP outlines, of getting around the story. On the other hand, as 2cajuman2 points out, it would be a very easy and uncomplicated way out. But then, does it really need to be overthought and complicated? If it is the clone, I will wait and see how it plays out before judging it fully
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Nanodragon8
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« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2011, 11:28:35 pm »

I also think that something like this would be the perfect way to exclude the Doctor/River relationship from the viewers without making a 40 year gap in the doctor’s life between Series 6 and Series 7. I mean Alex Kingston (River) is almost fifty years old now and although she's looking really good for her age I think they might have problems getting her to look twenty or thirty in every episode of the next series. Every time the Doctor see's her she gets younger and they can’t keep that up forever.
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« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2011, 12:51:53 am »

But I thought the Flesh were unstable? I mean, they stretch, can't completely control their appearance....

I need to rewatch it, I've still only seen it once, so I'll have to come back after a rewatch 2moz Smiley
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River Song: Everyone knows that everyone dies. And nobody knows it like the doctor. But I do think that all the skies in all the worlds might just turn dark, if he ever accepts it.

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Nanodragon8
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« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2011, 10:22:01 am »

Amy: Doctor what's happened to her?
Doctor: She can't stabilize. She's shifting between half form and full form, for now atleast.
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« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2011, 07:45:03 pm »

IMO, the Dead Doctor from the first episode could very well be the clone, HOWEVER, I do think it's a bit too obvious of a theory, isn't it? I mean, in the Moff's standards...
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People assume that time is a strict progression of cause to effect, but *actually* from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint - it's more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly... time-y wimey... stuff.
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