Amy Williams?!

[DAK]

OK, the more I think about this the more it irks me.   

I know what he was trying to convey here, but this came across as downright sexist.  How dare he assume Amy should take Rory's last name?  Many women choose not to change their names when they get married.  I didn't; I think it's one of the more sexist traditions still common in our society.  I was really disappointed to hear this come out of the Doctor's mouth.

[Oh-Wise-One]

Sorry but I think this is a big pile of nonsense. I don't generally disagree with your posts, but I find this one to be way off the mark. I honestly, honestly believe that there wasn't an ounce of sexism intended within that line. The point of calling her Amy Williams was to highlight where her priorities now lie. He took her with him as Amy Pond, a shallow and not very likeable woman, but in the time she has been with him she has grown up, matured and and become married to Rory and her loyalties and priorities are now changed. It wasn't about her taking Rory's surname, it was about the Doctor showing her that he isn't the most important person in her life and she can finally stop waiting.

[DAK]

The point of calling her Amy Williams was to highlight where her priorities now lie. He took her with him as Amy Pond, a shallow and not very likeable woman, but in the time she has been with him she has grown up, matured and and become married to Rory and her loyalties and priorities are now changed. 

Yes, I realize this is what he was trying to convey to her.  Maybe since it's such a sore issue with me it came across the wrong way (after 20+ years of marriage there are still family members on both sides who refer to me as Mrs ***** , even after repeatedly being corrected).  I hope you're right about there being no sexist intent, but I wish the writer could have phrased it better - I doubt I'm the only one that cringed at this.

[Iceman]

I don't think it was sexist either.

I just think he meant "You aren't Amelia Pond with fish fingers and custard anymore, go have a normal married life" etc

Im not sure why "Amy Williams" would bother people when in Lets Kill Hitler he called the robot version "You big ginge" which is way worse in my opinion, although it was not said maliciously.

[Exterminate]

I agree with OWO. I don't think there was anything sexist in there. He didn't call her Mrs Williams to annoy her or to make out that she belongs to Rory, but to point out that she belong with Rory

[DAK]

Well, at least I'm not the only one who didn't like the "Amy Williams" bit. 

http://io9.com/5841387/doctor-who-the-hero-takes-a-fall

"(Was anybody else a bit miffed, though, that the Doctor's big revelation comes along with suddenly calling Amy "Amy Williams", as if he's finally transferring ownership of her from himself to Rory? Or saying that she should become her own person, by becoming an extension of Rory? It was an odd choice.)"

Im not sure why "Amy Williams" would bother people when in Lets Kill Hitler he called the robot version "You big ginge" which is way worse in my opinion, although it was not said maliciously. 

Unless "big ginge" means something other than big redhead, I'm afraid I don't get the reference.  Amy herself said if she had any offspring with Van Gogh they'd be the ultimate ginge. 

[poprockgeek]

You know what I thought when I heard this - 'finally.' Not because I think Amy should change her name - that is absolutely the choice of the individual woman & she clearly stated that her name was Amy Pond when asked in the previous episode - but because I felt that the Doctor, while reminding her that she has changed since she met him, was also himself acknowledging himself that she has changed (he did after all proceed it with something like 'it's time we both saw each other for what we really are') - I'm not sure that is something he has 100% admitted up til now. The use of 'Amy Williams' was just a simple two word statement that conveyed all that - let us not forget he was short on time. I truly don't believe there was any sexist intent.

[Peri-Peri]

I agree. I can sort of understand where the sexism argument comes from, but I really think that isn't the point or intention of the speech.

[DAK]

I know that wasn't the point of the speech; I said in my original post I understood what he was trying to convey to her.  I just think it was a poor choice of words on the writer's part.  Taking the husband's last name is up to the woman; Amy clearly kept her surname and even gave it to their daughter.  What the Doctor said did not sit well with me *despite* the non-sexist intent.

I know people aren't being insulting or sexist when they call me Mrs <husband's name>, but they *are* being presumptuous. 

[Tardis-Console]

I think it was fine. You could say it was a bad choice of words, but with a limited amount of time and room for dialogue, what more could be said? Calling her Mrs Pond wouldn't have had the desired effect of the speech, but explaining why he called her Mrs Williams would have taken up time and ruined an otherwise good scene. The difference between what happened in this scene and what is described in DAKs post above is that the Doctor wasn't being presumptuous. He knows that isn't her name. In another circumstance I could see and perhaps even agree with the argument, but here, where everyone knows the intention and reasoning of the comment, I don't see what the problem is. It's like looking for an argument.

Looking at this on the flipside, I think it is far more demeaning to call Rory 'Rory Pond' or 'Mr Pond' because when that is said, the characters and we as viewers take into consideration Amy's domineering nature, accept the fact that she 'wears the pants' and then it becomes a funny joke that he is her posession. It's all meant in a light hearted way and we laugh and joke about it as they do on screen, Rory also, but the point is that it is meant in a far more negative way that when the Doctor called Amy 'Williams', even if it is said in a jovial, light hearted way, and yet nobody bats an eyelid. Io9, who are quoted complaining about the 'Williams' thing in the article DAK posted, have even headlined articles calling him Rory Pond. So where is the line drawn? When is it funny and when is it sexist? Because it can't be one rule for one and one rule for another.

[DAK]

I think it was fine. You could say it was a bad choice of words, but with a limited amount of time and room for dialogue, what more could be said? 

"You belong with your husband now", or words to that effect, would have worked better for me.

Calling her Mrs Pond wouldn't have had the desired effect of the speech, but explaining why he called her Mrs Williams would have taken up time and ruined an otherwise good scene.

"Mrs" is another patriarchal term that I despise.  Why should that automatically become a woman's title when she marries?  I know very few women under 40 who go by "Mrs" these days.  Why not just leave the "Mrs" and the "Williams" stuff out of it?  She's his wife with her own identity.

The difference between what happened in this scene and what is described in DAKs post above is that the Doctor wasn't being presumptuous. He knows that isn't her name. In another circumstance I could see and perhaps even agree with the argument, but here, where everyone knows the intention and reasoning of the comment, I don't see what the problem is. It's like looking for an argument.

I'm not one to look for arguments; I was genuinely annoyed by what the Doctor said.  Perhaps it's a gender thing; am I correct that I am the only female posting in this thread?

Looking at this on the flipside, I think it is far more demeaning to call Rory 'Rory Pond' or 'Mr Pond' because when that is said, the characters and we as viewers take into consideration Amy's domineering nature, accept the fact that she 'wears the pants' and then it becomes a funny joke that he is her posession. It's all meant in a light hearted way and we laugh and joke about it as they do on screen, Rory also, but the point is that it is meant in a far more negative way that when the Doctor called Amy 'Williams', even if it is said in a jovial, light hearted way, and yet nobody bats an eyelid. Io9, who are quoted complaining about the 'Williams' thing in the article DAK posted, have even headlined articles calling him Rory Pond. So where is the line drawn? When is it funny and when is it sexist? Because it can't be one rule for one and one rule for another.

If that's how someone felt then far be it for me to tell them their feelings on the matter are "a big pile of nonsense" (as did the very first reply to my post).  I can understand why someone might be offended.  As you said though, it's done in a light hearted way.  He teases Rory all the time.  He wasn't kidding when he called her "Amy Williams". 

[poprockgeek]

Perhaps it's a gender thing; am I correct that I am the only female posting in this thread?

No you're not. Peri-Peri, Tardis-Console & myself are all female.

I actually thought that was fairly well known 

[Peri-Peri]

Perhaps rather than being a gender thing it is more of a cultural thing. Aside from Iceman, every other poster in this thread has been from the UK (T-C is in Ireland, but that's close enough) and that could also be a big factor in the way responses have come in. You mentioned that you know very few woman under 40 who go by Mrs, but that is very different on this side of the pond. In my experience at least. I know that of all my married friends, of which there are a lot, only one of them didn't change her name, and that was because of a work thing rather than a personal thing, and she doesn't mind being known by either. and every one of them goes by Mrs. It might be something that is falling in popularity, but I would say that 99% of people here who marry take their husbands name or go by Mrs. I think its more of a traditional thing rather than feeling they need/have to do so. (Just for reference, my general friends circle are all early to mid 30s). I think it is probably a case of Mrs. being used because it is the 'norm'.

I agree that 'You belong with Rory now' would have worked equally as well, if not better and it's a shame they didn't use something like that because then it solves problems like these, but I don't think it was particularly sloppy writing to put it they way they did, just perhaps a bit misjudged. As I said in my original post I can understand where this POV comes from, I just don't fully agree with it.

Puts mod hat on.

I don't think this particular opinion is in any way about looking for arguments or picking the bones of something for the sake of having a moan. I don't personally agree with DAKs opinion (well actually I agree with some, just not all), but that doesn't make it wrong or less valid than any other that get's posted in here so let's try and keep it light and not make it personal by calling it nonsense or argumentative and the like. If you don't agree with an opinion then by all means say so, but remember your manners everyone

[poprockgeek]

In my experience at least. I know that of all my married friends, of which there are a lot, only one of them didn't change her name, and that was because of a work thing rather than a personal thing, and she doesn't mind being known by either. and every one of them goes by Mrs.

Pretty much all the women I know who have got married have chosen to change their name & become Mrs X as well. So maybe you're right PP, maybe it is a cultural thing.

[DAK]

Perhaps it's a gender thing; am I correct that I am the only female posting in this thread? 

No you're not. Peri-Peri, Tardis-Console & myself are all female.

I actually thought that was fairly well known   

Ah, I didn't realize that.  Sorry.      Learn something new every day!   

Perhaps rather than being a gender thing it is more of a cultural thing. Aside from Iceman, every other poster in this thread has been from the UK (T-C is in Ireland, but that's close enough) and that could also be a big factor in the way responses have come in. You mentioned that you know very few woman under 40 who go by Mrs, but that is very different on this side of the pond. In my experience at least. I know that of all my married friends, of which there are a lot, only one of them didn't change her name, and that was because of a work thing rather than a personal thing, and she doesn't mind being known by either. and every one of them goes by Mrs. It might be something that is falling in popularity, but I would say that 99% of people here who marry take their husbands name or go by Mrs. I think its more of a traditional thing rather than feeling they need/have to do so. (Just for reference, my general friends circle are all early to mid 30s). I think it is probably a case of Mrs. being used because it is the 'norm'.

I thought about the cultural thing after I'd posted last night (well, OK, early this morning!).  I'm in the U.S., and in my career field (science) most of the women I associate with are the brainy independent geeky types.  I've been at this job over 20 years, and thinking back only one of my female colleagues who got married took her husband's name.  Aside from that though, I've noticed that most of my son's female teachers have used 'Ms' rather than 'Miss' or 'Mrs'.  'Ms' does seem to be more common as the default here than either of the other two. 

I tried to see if there was a similar discussion on the bbcamerica site, but their forums seem to be down (and have been the last couple of times I've checked).  I did find a discussion here  ( http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Amy_Pond "No more Amy Williams-ing Please?" ) with the same complaint.  It's nice to know I wasn't the only one annoyed!   

[poprockgeek]

I'm actually pretty sure that TARDIS wiki thing has nothing to do with this episode as the discussion is dated April/May 2011. I think that is more that someone changed her name somewhere on the site to Amy Williams (or in fact listed her as Amy Pond, later Amy Williams) when she has only ever been listed in the end credits as Pond. That's how I read that anyway.

I take the point that the poster hates the presumption that she would/should though. And as I said further up the thread I believe it is absolutely the woman's right to choose either way.

As for the Miss/Mrs/Ms - I am resolutely a Miss, but again I accept the right of people to be whatever they want. I just can't abide Ms for myself.

And having been a teacher, I would say most (not all) primary school teachers here are either one or the other. It's rare to see a Ms. Can't say for secondary & further education though.

[Twisted-Sister]

I am going to sit totally on the fence with this one because I can't really choose a side to come down on. To begin, for those unsure, I am a woman.

For the most part I actually agree with Daks argument. I think there were ways that conversation could have gone that would have conveyed the same message entirely without her marital status even being mentioned, let alone the Williams/Mrs. part of it.

The reason I find myself on the fence though is because in the OP Dak expressed that she thought it was 'downright sexist' and 'how dare he assume Amy should take Rory's last name'. As other have said I don't think, however badly worded, that it was sexist and I don't think he was saying that she should take Rory's last name. I think he was just putting a point across and the writer just worded it a little unclearly and perhaps carelessly. As PP and PRG said, in the UK (where the writer is from) it is very much the norm but perhaps given the fact that the show is broadcast worldwide where attitudes vary and can be vastly different, maybe more tact could have been taken in the speech to make it seem a little less (possibly) offensive.

As for the Mrs, Miss, Ms. debate, in the UK, Ms. is the 'official' term granted to a divorcee. Whether they choose to use that title is up to them though. I work (when I am not on maternity leave) for a local government branch and all official forms and documentations use Ms. for women who are divorced, though the majority still choose to go by Mrs (and it is a question we have to ask everyone). Whether that is the same worldwide though I have no idea.

[DAK]

Interesting about the 'Ms' designation in the UK.  Here in the US it's used by both single and married women.  The point is it's supposed to be marital status neutral, like 'Mr' is for men.  It levels the playing field, both professionally and personally.  It's the safest default if you don't know what title a woman uses.  I've always used Ms, both before and after marriage. 

And you're right, I shouldn't beat up Eleven for that (especially since I adore him so much!).  It was the writer who put those words in his mouth.  And come to think of it, Moffat had Amy call River "Mrs Doctor from the future" back in Time of the Angels.  So maybe I should be blaming him instead?   

[Miss Wright]

I am female and from the US, and I was actually happy that he called her "Amy Williams." I don't see it as sexist at all, and honestly, I see "Mrs." as a sign of respect, and not about age.

Remember when Amy said that Melody Pond was the name of a super hero, while Melody Williams was the name of a geography teacher? I felt that it was referring back to that, that Amy isn't a super hero chasing danger around the stars anymore. Her own identity has changed by losing her faith in the Doctor. It is almost as if she has broken an addiction, and is going on to live a free life. {Not that I am saying that the Doctor is an addiction, although he could be  } He was just telling her to go live her own life, to do what she really wanted/

[poprockgeek]

Interesting about the 'Ms' designation in the UK.  Here in the US it's used by both single and married women.  The point is it's supposed to be marital status neutral, like 'Mr' is for men.  It levels the playing field, both professionally and personally.  It's the safest default if you don't know what title a woman uses.  I've always used Ms, both before and after marriage. 

And you're right, I shouldn't beat up Eleven for that (especially since I adore him so much!).  It was the writer who put those words in his mouth.  And come to think of it, Moffat had Amy call River "Mrs Doctor from the future" back in Time of the Angels.  So maybe I should be blaming him instead?   

Ms is used here as a default as well, just to confuse the issue! - I get letters addressed to Ms & I've never been married. If I have the opportunity to change it to Miss I will though (as I said previously I can't stand it). My mum is a divorcee & has chose to remain a Mrs, and holds Ms in much the same regard as I do. These are our personal thoughts on it though - we both respect the rights of others to use it & would never not use it when addressing someone we knew preferred it.

I certainly don't think Moff expects people to change their names or automatically become a Mrs - his wife has retained her own name. I don't know about Toby Whithouse's wife. I think it may just be a reflection of the British cultural norm more than anything else. And I really don't think it meant any more than a reminder of how she's changed.