Missing Episode Discussion

[The Rutan Host]

Exactly. The BBC have said in the past that they will let the holders of any episodes keep them, all they want is a copy of it for their own use, and so it becomes up to the holder of the episodes to let them 'borrow' the reels for a short time.

[Exterminate]

I'd do it. I want a complete collection and I would want others to be able to enjoy it too. If I had hold of them I would hand it in. What am I going to do with a 50 year old film reel anyway? I wouldn't care about money

[The Rutan Host]

And that is very honourable of you, but you are speaking as a fan and not a collector. I would do the same, but whoever holds the episodes may not care either way about the show.

Let's say for example you are a collector with no interest in Doctor Who whatsoever, you just like collecting rarities. You come across a missing episode of Doctor Who and after a bit of research you find out that it could be the only one in existence. It's far more likely that this will become something that you keep for yourself rather than make it become something that everyone has. Even taking away any financial gain, the idea of holding the only one of anything would be a much shinier prospect to a collector than putting it in the hands of the wider public. For many collectors, status is far more important than money. I'm not saying that this is the case and that people are holding on just so that they can be selfish about it, but it's a possibility.

[Exterminate]

Ok, but if status is what they are after then surely they would be going around telling everyone 'I've got Mission to the Unknown, ner ner ner ner ner ner'. Keeping silent brings no status and to all intents and purposes keeps the story/episode 'lost'.

[The Rutan Host]

Well yes, I suppose you are right. In the event of something like the above happening, where collectors have hold of an episode, it could go one of two ways. They either keep it to themselves and go to bed at night in the knowledge that they are the only ones to own such a thing, and themselves knowing is all they need, or they could shout about it and say 'I have it but I'm not returning it', which will make themselves public and open to a barrage of very angry fans who could go to extreme lengths to pressure them into returning it, opening up a lot of abuse and the like. It's an extreme example but it is possible, especially given how passionate the fans can get. And on top of the negative response from the people who believe they actually are in possession, there will then be a large number of people who will accuse the collector of lying (which has happened in the past when people have made things up). The accusations could damage their reputation within the collecting community and make others unwilling to deal with them. They could then either live with the accusation of lies or do something to prove that they do indeed have said episode, perhaps via a showing, which then opens up the possibility of the reel being recorded or stolen etc.

In situations like that, it would be far more likely that someone who has it would keep quiet about it unless they were looking for a sale.

[Exterminate]

Jeez. When you stratch the surface a little this whole thing actually becomes really complex. What I don't understand though is why people would bother to lie about it. Surely in the end they will get found out. If they are going to say they have something then people will always expect them to back it up and if they refuse then people will always assume it is lies. I know I would. When you think about it, if you aren't willing to share then there really is no gain in saying anything about it at all.

[The Rutan Host]

Unless you want to be funny.

A while back someone was claiming to have a missing episode of the Macra Terror. The details are a bit fuzzy to me now, but I think they said something along the lines of they would only return it if someone at the BBC (I forget who) gave a public apology on YouTube to their deceased father who worked at the BBC in the 70's and had been sacked, or something like that at least. It turned out that the person claiming to have the episode just had a grudge against whoever it was they wanted the apology from and was trying to make them look foolish. It was rumbled pretty quickly but for a moment it had a lot of fans excited.

[Exterminate]

That's mean, but it would have been funny to see

Getting back to the missing episodes, specifically the three that you say are definitely back in the hands of the BBC, do you have any idea when they might pop up? Where did they come from?

[The Rutan Host]

To be perfectly honest, as much as I would love to be able to give you answers to these questions, I don't know them. And that's not me holding off for any reason, it's just simply information I don't have.

Using my own speculation, based on the information that has been handed to me I think the larger haul has come from many different sources, rather than one person/group having hundreds of reels to hand over, and this is why MP/EotW/WoF is back while others (possibly) aren't. The release of those stories will definitely come, but I have no idea when. I would hazard a guess at some time around the anniversary, but this is wishful thinking on my part and by no means a cert. While my source has seen MP relatively recently, I have no idea how long the BBC has actually had hold of them (though I will ask for information about this as I haven't done before) and so it could mean that work on the release is already complete, which would make the release sooner rather than later, or it could be that work is ongoing or not even started, which could push them back perhaps a year or more. I've no idea how long a release takes from making a start on a serial to getting it on the shelves.

In regards to the larger haul, I know very little about it other than there is definitely more episodes out there being negotiated on. I don't have names or numbers, just confirmation that there is. If, like a theory in this thread suggests, they are part of a find that includes many other tv shows then that could push their announcement, let alone release, way back. I wouldn't like to even hazard a guess as to when they would be released, if ever. And I say that of course because as far as I am aware, negotiations are ongoing and not set in stone that they will indeed be returned. On the flip side of that, if they are part of a wider find then I would imagine, again as stated in this thread, that keeping that find a secret would be much harder. I haven't been informed about whether or not there were other shows in the find but that could either be because my source isn't privy to that information or because they just haven't told me about it, probably because they know I'm not that concerned about other finds, as cool as they would be.

[Exterminate]

Well what actually needs doing to them? Is the quality really bad or something?

[The Rutan Host]

In terms of the quality, I think it varies, but all the episodes of those three stories are usable, I know that much. Even so, they will still need to have restoration work done to them to clean them up for release. That takes time in itself. Then adding to that all the bonus features, such as bringing people in for commentaries, making little documentaries etc. that usually fill up the bonus features. I'd imagine they'd make some sort of talking heads thingy where people discuss their return as well, and then you have to sign off on artwork, get the appropriate rights for actors' contracts/fees, market it and who knows whatever else would need to go into it. I'd guess it would take at least a couple of months to sort out.

[Exterminate]

I didn't even think of all the bonus and contract stuff. I guess that could push it back a fair bit.

But then this now opens another branch. If it is to be kept a secret, surely everyone who has to be contacted in regards to bonus features (cameramen, sound operators, actors, talky people, the estates of the now deceased and lord knows whoever else) means that keeping this a secret will be so much harder. While it's in house they could probably keep the amount of people in the know below 10 or 15, taking into account the people who handle the find and the people who will restore it, but getting it prepared for a release before it is even announced that it is found could mean that it is closer to 100 people in the know and keeping every one of those quiet I would assume is impossible. I mean, someone already passed information on to you and you are now posting it onto a forum (not that I am complaining) where any member, or indeed anyone who lurks can then take the information and pass it on. Within a week it could be thousands of people in the know, even if not officially.

[The Rutan Host]

Well yes, and 'officially' there is no find, nothing located, nothing being restored and nothing due to be released. That isn't true, of course, but 'officially' it is all just a rumour and while it just a rumour it is still somewhat under control, silly as that may sound.

I would imagine that any release, let's use Marco Polo as an example, would have a large number of people who would need to be involved. The credited cast would all have to be compensated in some way, which would mean paying them for the use of their work. Contacting William Russell, as an example, might be as straightforward as speaking to one person, however someone like Jacqueline Hill, who is now deceased, would have to have the money paid to their estate, which could involve going through any number of people (this isn't my area of expertise so I am not sure how it would be done). In a cast of let's say 15-20 people, that bumps the number up significantly. Then as you say, anyone who they bring in to do work on any of the features related to the story would no doubt be informed about why they are working on it, though perhaps there would be ways around this with things aside from a commentary/discussion about the retrieval. Anyone specifically working on it behind the scenes, such as cameramen etc. I would imagine is under contract and so technically shouldn't speak about it and anyone contacted about their fee, such as an actor, I would imagine have to sign a non-disclosure agreement, barring them from speaking about it. That's not to say these things don't still leak, with my source as an example, but even then I think there is a lot of information they are withholding, and I am being fed the basics of it.

It could be that my idea about how such contracts and agreements work is way off the mark, but I think it would at least be along those types of lines. Again, though, this isn't my area and it's not the type of conversation I have had in order to know something more specific in this area. I'm just giving my opinion on how this could play out in terms of who knows.

[Exterminate]

Makes as much sense as anything else I suppose. Keeping it a secret seems like an impossible task. And that makes me wonder why they have. Supposing you are right, and I am inclined to believe you, that MP/EOTW/WOF has been returned and is actually past the negotiation stage which you talked about earlier, then what good reason is there to keep it a secret? I understand the delicacy of the 'larger haul' as we keep calling it, because they obviously want to make sure that talks don't fall through, but with something that is as officially back in the BBC's hands as any other story which I own on DVD, then the secrecy is somewhat unnecessary, wouldn't you think? Especially given how much this rumour has grown and blown up. And if you are wrong, which is a possibility, then why wouldn't they shoot down the rumour? They've done so in the past, so why not this one?

[The Rutan Host]

Well there could be any number of reasons, I suppose. Perhaps they want to keep it a surprise for the anniversary or maybe they have had trouble getting the release rights due to a problem with an actors contract or something like that? I know the actors, for example, have to be paid for the work but I have no idea if they have any say in whether or not it could be released, so William Russell for example saying 'no way, I won't sign, you can't use my image without my permission and I don't give it'. Sounds unlikely that an actor would have so much power, but could it be possible? I'm not certain. They've not had trouble with any other releases so I'd guess something like that is unlikely. The other possibility is that they don't want to rock the boat with current negotiations. Announcing this find could lend more weight to the larger haul, which could lead to more fans becoming involved, more speculation and such, which could lead to disrupting the ongoing negotiations about other finds.

Perhaps it is held up because of technical issues. We have seen releases pushed back in the past because restoration has been trickier than anticipated, so perhaps they'd want to know that everything is perfect before announcements are made.

This is all my own speculation, I want to add, and not what I have been told by my source. I have no idea how these things work and what could be holding it up, but these are things I think could be a possibility. Personally I think it's so that they can make a big reveal around the anniversary, but that is again my own theory and not information which I have been given. Whatever the reason the announcement hasn't been made, I'm sure the BBC have a good reason for it and I am 100% certain that it is coming at some point. These stories are definitely back in their hands.

As for a denial, the BBC are not allowed to lie, they can however skew the truth. I believe a statement has been issued to some degree, though I believe it was to a personal enquiry, where a representative said that they 'could not confirm' a find had been made. Make of that what you will.

[Exterminate]

Well, that doesn't say anything, and yet says more than I want it too.

Is it, 'I can't confirm that episodes have been found because I don't know'

or 'I can't confirm that episodes have been found, because indeed they have not'

or even 'I can't confirm that they have been found because I am not allowed to confirm it'

??

Personally, and I am not saying this to lend weight to my theory on this, but if someone asked me 'have any episodes been returned?' and I was in a position where I knew the answer was no, I would say that no episodes have been returned. Saying 'I/We can't confirm that a find has been made' makes it sound like there is something to confirm, they just can't right now. And it stays within the laws of the BBC. They are not lying, they just aren't giving a straight answer.

[The Rutan Host]

Exactly. However, in defence of the BBC, at what point can they win with the fans unless they just say yes, which for whatever reason they are unwilling to do at this point. How clear does a clear statement need to be before fans will stop picking it apart? an example of some possible statements and how they can be pulled apart...

'We cannot confirm that any new episodes have been found' - plays out exactly like you said above. Even if that is their way of saying no, they have opened themselves up to a barrage of new questions.

'No episodes have been returned to the BBC' - are they in the post? have you had them sent elsewhere? This doesn't rule out negotiations or this doesn't mean you don't know where they are, etc.

'We currently have no negotiations ongoing about the return of any missing episodes' - are the negotiations completed? If you wanted to be really picky you could even call into argument the fact that the episodes are no longer missing and so also makes this not a lie.

'There are still 106 episodes missing from the archives' - is this because you haven't sealed the deal yet, etc.

There are endless statements and endless ways that the fans can pull them apart. If you torture a sentence for long enough it will eventually read as anything that you want it to say. The BBC could clear it up, as they have with past rumours, with a firm statement to say that there are no negotiations, no finds, no returned episodes, no upcoming releases, etc, which gives a firm no to everything and ends the rumour dead. However they can't do that because that would be a lie due to the fact that they have at least 17 previously missing episodes back in their hands.

[Exterminate]

But surely saying nothing is giving just as much fan to the flames anyway, probably moreso, because in the past they have shot down such rumours. Being evasive or just staying totally silent is giving fans more reason to think they are up to something. It really is a catch 22. They can't lie and yet they can't (for whatever reason) confirm.

And either way it looks like the fans will find a way to keep it alive. Those who believe that the BBC are holding off will continue to do so until an announcement is made and those waiting for the big haul to come through could potentially keep finding reasons why it hasn't forever and even then they could fall back on 'they are out there, but negotiations fell through'.

[The Rutan Host]

Well yes, I suppose, but that wouldn't mean that they have been wrong to pin their hopes on this. Marco, Enemy, Web are all coming back. No doubt, it is just a matter of when. Barring the idea that the BBC suddenly decides it does not want to release them, which is a million percent unlikely, you will have them on your shelf before you know it. I'm as certain of that as I am my own name.

The larger haul is where things could get potentially disappointing. There are episodes out there being negotiated on by the BBC. Some say hundreds including ones not lost, others say a handful. Personally I do not have an exact number and neither does my source, but they do have confirmation of the negotiations. Assuming all goes to plan then more episodes or even full stories will eventually be released aside from the three above that I have named. The potential for disappointment comes from the fact that negotiations may break down, meaning the BBC don't get their hands on them and so we don't get to watch them. This doesn't change the fact that there are other missing episodes definitely in existence, but does hinder our chances of owning them. It is because of this possibility that I tend to shy away from the rumours of the larger haul. I will discuss what I think might happen to them and also the tiny bit of solid info that I have that there is more, but even then it could be anything from 1 to 80 or so and I've no idea of a number, and unlike the stories above, I have no solid proof that these episodes will ever see the light of day and I've no intention of pretending otherwise. I can bet you my fez though about Marco/Enemy/Web.

[Exterminate]

And if negotiations break down? Then what? Would the BBC ever tell us?