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Dislike for Moffat

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BlueRose
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« on: October 24, 2010, 02:44:13 pm »

It had to have been started, and I think I'm the only one gutsy enough.

Anyone else who hasn't liked the show since he picked it up--and groaned when he was announced as showrunner?

Even if you didn't do the latter...at least know you're not alone.

Don't get me wrong; he's a great writer. But I don't think he's good at writing Doctor Who, and I don't like what he's brought to the show. I could spend time ranting about most of his episodes, but it started for me back at the Girl in the Fireplace and aside from enjoying Blink, I haven't really liked his stuff since. I think he's viciously overrated, suited for an occasional change in tone for a series but not as head of the entire show.
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« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2010, 02:57:16 pm »

I have been very outspoken about my views on Moffat. I like a lot of his work and general story outlines, but I am on the whole concerned about his views and ideas for the show, and the general path he seems to be taking it down. He had a tough act to follow and so it is understandable that he wants to put his stamp on the show, but he seems intent on winding the fans up, which I personally don't appreciate. Before he had even started he was making comments about fixing the TARDIS chamelion circuits, ignoring the canon and god knows what else. I understand its his show now, and I appreciate the work that goes into it. I dont for a second think he should have to answer for fans, but at the end of the day he should at least respect us, which I think he blatently doesnt. We, after all, go and buy his DVD's, merchandise and whatever else. We are expected to tune in each week and watch the latest goings on, and then just accept anything he wants to do to the show without giving up on it. Dont get me wrong, I will stick by it through thick and thin, and I know that most of what he says is to get a rise out fans, but that will only push them further from the show in the long term if you ask me.

I liked Series 5 on the whole, and so far my complaints about it are minimal, but my view on Moffat is less than favourable.
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« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2010, 03:22:56 pm »

I liked Series 5 on the whole, and so far my complaints about it are minimal, but my view on Moffat is less than favourable.

There is also a very damning interview where he discusses the show and his work and talks about how women are "needy" and are always out to get a husband. Watch all of his eps in that light where women are solely mothers/wanna-be wives/etc and it's pretty clear how he thinks women belong in New Who. I MUCH prefer RTD's take on gender and sexuality by a long shot. He doesn't pretend it's not there but he doesn't make it into a sexist ruling influence, either.

I rant a lot about sexism in scifi. With exceptions of Babylon 5, Firefly, and what-not there's a lot of it. Star Trek made great strides for women, even fighting with network heads who wanted us barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen. And what Moffat has been doing is seriously detrimental to that.

I had hoped desperately that my gut instinct with him was wrong but I still remember Reinette and River back when RTD was in charge and knew we could expect more of the same. And I was sadly not disappointed in that expectation.
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« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2010, 03:28:13 pm »

I liked Series 5 on the whole, and so far my complaints about it are minimal, but my view on Moffat is less than favourable.

There is also a very damning interview where he discusses the show and his work and talks about how women are "needy" and are always out to get a husband. Watch all of his eps in that light where women are solely mothers/wanna-be wives/etc and it's pretty clear how he thinks women belong in New Who. I MUCH prefer RTD's take on gender and sexuality by a long shot. He doesn't pretend it's not there but he doesn't make it into a sexist ruling influence, either.

I rant a lot about sexism in scifi. With exceptions of Babylon 5, Firefly, and what-not there's a lot of it. Star Trek made great strides for women, even fighting with network heads who wanted us barefoot, pregnant and in the kitchen. And what Moffat has been doing is seriously detrimental to that.

I had hoped desperately that my gut instinct with him was wrong but I still remember Reinette and River back when RTD was in charge and knew we could expect more of the same. And I was sadly not disappointed in that expectation.

I dont mind Moffat, but he cant write women for toffee, so with that in mind I agree with you wholeheartedly. He seems to have this weird view of how they should act or talk or behave, like he has been told of their existence, but never actually met one.

Joss Whedon! Now there is a man who knows how to write a woman! Moff should get himself a box set of Buffy, Angel or Firefly and sit with his notepad
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« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2010, 03:31:28 pm »


I dont mind Moffat, but he cant write women for toffee, so with that in mind I agree with you wholeheartedly. He seems to have this weird view of how they should act or talk or behave, like he has been told of their existence, but never actually met one.
[/quote]

No, he really doesn't--and his comments about it in interviews really reveal that. He should've stuck with Coupling.

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Joss Whedon! Now there is a man who knows how to write a woman! Moff should get himself a box set of Buffy, Angel or Firefly and sit with his notepad

Joss Whedon, RTD, JJ Abrams, Neil Gaiman, and J Michael Straczinski are all writers I wish would go into a room and not come out until they give us the geekgasm of a lifetime. No, really.
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« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2010, 03:51:05 pm »

I think he has run the show into the ground personally
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« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2010, 04:40:49 pm »

I think he has run the show into the ground personally

I am in sad but vehement agreement with you.

I really, genuinely wanted to eat my words with a side order of whatever. I absolutely love the show and without a doubt it's my favorite. But the good that RTD brought into it he tossed out into the trash and he clearly is making it into his own thing.

It's when the show is made with a self-consciousness and attitude towards the fans that it fails. This is where even RTD was going downhill. Things need to happen in order to tell a good story and advance the story, not just to make the fans happy or rile them up. The biggest mistake any of the writers have done is listen to the fans and be conscious of them too, too much either to the point of trying to appease them all the time or conversely, be adversial towards them all the time.

We've gone the route of the pendulum and we need to find a way back. I sincerely wish that the writers and showrunner stopped and watched seasons 1-3 of the new series to remember where they came from. What RTD did was pure genius; he created a family friendly scifi adult drama. THAT'S why it worked and worked for all ages. Now it's just a self-conscious kiddy tribute to Moffat's cleverness, and unless he ditches many, many plot elements (River bullshit, screamy-shouty-pouty companions whose sole benefit is a cute face and a tight short skirt, plots which make no sense and do not advance the characters one iota) I'm very afraid for the show. Very, very afraid. As is I plan to watch the Gaiman ep next season but nothing else.

I feel very bad for Matt Smith. It's obvious they managed to bring someone on board because he wasn't a fan to start with, never saw the show and hence wouldn't know what he was in for. He even admitted as much during an interview; he had never seen the show. I think he's good but doesn't have the acting chops to carry out a bad script. I will say however that I liked Eleventh Hour solely due to his antics. The rest of the plot was recyling of old plots at best and rubbish at worst. When I watch Rose, Christmas Invasion, and Smith and Jones in comparison it makes me want to cry.
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« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2010, 04:46:32 pm »

Unfortunately when I voice these views, I am told by certain elements of fandom it's because I'm a "David Tennant fan" and not a "real Doctor Who fan". When they hear that I have a growing collection of Classic Who, absolutely love the Third, Fourth, Eighth, and Ninth Doctors and have yet to see a Doctor I don't like, they start stuttering and walk away. While there are DT and Ten fans who have given the whole thing a very bad angle, I want to emphasize that it's indeed possible to be a Doctor Who, a Ten, and a David Tennant fan but I am more than aware that being one doesn't necessarily mean you're the rest.

Sorry, I just had to tack this on as a side note. I'm VERY happy to have this board; we have a wide variety of opinions on here and have managed to square away our little corners where we can either rant or squee without bringing down the board for the rest and keep it civil. This place along with the David Tennant and Tenth Doctor fandoms are frankly my oasis right now because I utterly, utterly hate having to apologize for not liking Moffat. I shouldn't have to; we all have our things we love and loath about the show. I am frankly a Doctor fan first, a Ten fan second, and a David Tennant fan third. I also love what RTD did for the show because he was VERY obviously influenced by Joss Whedon and I adore all of Joss' work. He has made many intelligent, groundbreaking, and fantastic shows in the speculative genres and I can't wait to see what more he does next.

Okay, end exposition. Smiley
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« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2010, 05:08:16 pm »

I think he has run the show into the ground personally

I am in sad but vehement agreement with you.

I really, genuinely wanted to eat my words with a side order of whatever. I absolutely love the show and without a doubt it's my favorite. But the good that RTD brought into it he tossed out into the trash and he clearly is making it into his own thing.

It's when the show is made with a self-consciousness and attitude towards the fans that it fails. This is where even RTD was going downhill. Things need to happen in order to tell a good story and advance the story, not just to make the fans happy or rile them up. The biggest mistake any of the writers have done is listen to the fans and be conscious of them too, too much either to the point of trying to appease them all the time or conversely, be adversial towards them all the time.

We've gone the route of the pendulum and we need to find a way back. I sincerely wish that the writers and showrunner stopped and watched seasons 1-3 of the new series to remember where they came from. What RTD did was pure genius; he created a family friendly scifi adult drama. THAT'S why it worked and worked for all ages. Now it's just a self-conscious kiddy tribute to Moffat's cleverness, and unless he ditches many, many plot elements (River bullshit, screamy-shouty-pouty companions whose sole benefit is a cute face and a tight short skirt, plots which make no sense and do not advance the characters one iota) I'm very afraid for the show. Very, very afraid. As is I plan to watch the Gaiman ep next season but nothing else.

I feel very bad for Matt Smith. It's obvious they managed to bring someone on board because he wasn't a fan to start with, never saw the show and hence wouldn't know what he was in for. He even admitted as much during an interview; he had never seen the show. I think he's good but doesn't have the acting chops to carry out a bad script. I will say however that I liked Eleventh Hour solely due to his antics. The rest of the plot was recyling of old plots at best and rubbish at worst. When I watch Rose, Christmas Invasion, and Smith and Jones in comparison it makes me want to cry.

I am in no way trying to say you arent a real fan, or any of the usual crap that gets spouted on forums, but there is something here that I just dont get. You had a conversation with someone in a thread the other day, River I think it was, where you said you were a big fan of Gaimans and so would watch the episode he has written and hope that if River is in it he makes her bearable. But if you are a fan of the show, as you are of Gaiman, why dont you at least watch it and see how it pans out. You say you love the show but wont watch it, yet you also love Gaiman so are willing to put up with it. If his episode ends up being ****, or he doesnt make River bearable, will stop following his works?

Dont for a second think I am baiting you, but I cant think of a better way to put this across. The thing is, you have your views on Series 5 and what came before, which I respect and wont argue with because you have at least watched and based your opinions on what works for you and what doesnt, but unless you watch series 6 then you dont know how it will pan out or if you will enjoy it. Dont get me wrong, I know once you burn your fingers you dont rush to put your hand back in the fire, but every episode of this show is very different and every plot point spins it off in another direction. Just because you dont like what comes before, doesnt mean you wont like what comes next. I get that you are making an educated guess based on your experiences but you could end up being surprised. The thing is, if you dont watch then you wont find out. There are elements of the show that I dont really like, but it hasnt stopped me from watching because I know what came before and after were great and in the long run was worth sticking with.

Are you willing to accept that you could be turned around, or are you so sure you will hate it that you have reached that point where you wont let yourself like it regardless? As I said I am not arguing your reasoning or trying to convert you or question your fan-ness. I get your reasoning, but I dont understand your logic.
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« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2010, 06:27:26 pm »

I am in no way trying to say you arent a real fan, or any of the usual crap that gets spouted on forums, but there is something here that I just dont get. You had a conversation with someone in a thread the other day, River I think it was, where you said you were a big fan of Gaimans and so would watch the episode he has written and hope that if River is in it he makes her bearable. But if you are a fan of the show, as you are of Gaiman, why dont you at least watch it and see how it pans out. You say you love the show but wont watch it, yet you also love Gaiman so are willing to put up with it. If his episode ends up being ****, or he doesnt make River bearable, will stop following his works?

Gaiman's? No. his stuff is awesome and he's one of my favorite authors. But I don't know how much creative control he'll have over it and how much influence will come in. It'll be obvious once I see the episode, however.

Quote
Dont for a second think I am baiting you, but I cant think of a better way to put this across. The thing is, you have your views on Series 5 and what came before, which I respect and wont argue with because you have at least watched and based your opinions on what works for you and what doesnt, but unless you watch series 6 then you dont know how it will pan out or if you will enjoy it. Dont get me wrong, I know once you burn your fingers you dont rush to put your hand back in the fire, but every episode of this show is very different and every plot point spins it off in another direction. Just because you dont like what comes before, doesnt mean you wont like what comes next. I get that you are making an educated guess based on your experiences but you could end up being surprised. The thing is, if you dont watch then you wont find out. There are elements of the show that I dont really like, but it hasnt stopped me from watching because I know what came before and after were great and in the long run was worth sticking with.

I can completely tell where you are coming from--which is again, why I like this place. We can have civilized conversations like this that are thought-provoking without stepping on toes. That all being said, I'm pretty thick-skinned. Smiley

I am definitely coming from a place of "I've been burned and I absolutely hate River's char to the point where dealing with her is an aggravation I'd rather not subject myself to." I've already been disappointed beyond belief with the new series and I don't have much hope it'll be better. I genuinely and truly hope to be pleasantly disappointed. My game plan has been as it was with S5, wait until after it's aired and hear from others how it went and decide from there to watch it. It's been a cautious avoidance, not a flat-out boycott. If that makes any sense.

I still haven't seen Amy's Choice and Vincent and the Doctor, and both sounded like stellar episodes. The rest sounded either missable or flat out not watchable.

Quote
Are you willing to accept that you could be turned around, or are you so sure you will hate it that you have reached that point where you wont let yourself like it regardless? As I said I am not arguing your reasoning or trying to convert you or question your fan-ness. I get your reasoning, but I dont understand your logic.

Totally willing to accept I could be turned around and really wish I could. But I am absolutely, positively sick of having River crammed down my throat and do not want the show to turn into "Doctor Who and River Song", and it looks like it's heading in that direction. Just watching her in the Big Bang and how much she has been Mary Sue'd even further was atrocious. To deal with an entire series focused mostly on her would send me running away screaming in the other direction.

Again, they could turn her around and make her into a workable character in series 6. And I sincerely and genuinely hope they do. I intensely dislike Amy, love Amelia and wish her and Rory had been the companions from the get-go. The scripts haven't been stellar either. I really do not like hating my favorite show, but I can't help but feel that Moffat has destroyed it. In all fairness to him however, it was pretty much wrecked from the way Ten's regeneration was treated and how it was handled afterward, but that's a whole other story and belongs in a "Dislike for RTD" thread. That rant also goes along with the "we do storylines and plot and chars based on fandom and how we feel about it in fandom" versus being a part of the story and advancing the show. There's been far too much self-consciousness and fandom-awareness at the expense of a good programme in BOTH versions of the show.

I hope I make sense. I unfortunately started out not liking Moffat; his opinion of women is insulting at best and it shows in his female characters. He also can't do character development to save his life and even has stated in interviews that he doesn't find it important for the show. His entire attitude towards the fans is the total opposite of RTD's and we frankly need a happy medium: stop trying to either appease them or be contrary to them and just DO THE STORY.

Anyhow...yeah. Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2010, 12:22:42 am »

Where do I start? Like Blue Rose I despair of the idea that women grow up simply aspiring to get married and have kids.   RTD had companions that grew through the influence of the Doctor, Moffat gives us companions that emasculate the Doctor.  His reaction to strong women is to be afraid, as a female fan that irks me. In this fandom we have been berated and pigeonholed for so long, RTD allowed us a voice, gave us strong, in an emotional way, female characters etc, role models.  My daughter is 10, would I want her to have Amy as a role model in the way I had Sarah Jane, NO!!!  There is precious little in the show now for me, I have no character I can relate to. Again, like Blue Rose I detest GITF as I cannot bear the notion the Doctor would abandon Rose for some fancy bit, it jars with the entire series arc, and I personally detest the sexual nature Moffat foists on everything he writes. By the way people blathered about the gay agenda but 0 lbgt characters in s5 is even more odd!
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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2010, 01:44:37 am »

Where do I start? Like Blue Rose I despair of the idea that women grow up simply aspiring to get married and have kids.   RTD had companions that grew through the influence of the Doctor, Moffat gives us companions that emasculate the Doctor.  His reaction to strong women is to be afraid, as a female fan that irks me. In this fandom we have been berated and pigeonholed for so long, RTD allowed us a voice, gave us strong, in an emotional way, female characters etc, role models.  My daughter is 10, would I want her to have Amy as a role model in the way I had Sarah Jane, NO!!!  There is precious little in the show now for me, I have no character I can relate to. Again, like Blue Rose I detest GITF as I cannot bear the notion the Doctor would abandon Rose for some fancy bit, it jars with the entire series arc, and I personally detest the sexual nature Moffat foists on everything he writes. By the way people blathered about the gay agenda but 0 lbgt characters in s5 is even more odd!

The "gay agenda" crap made me furious alone. His sole agenda was to portray LGBT people the same damned way as everyone else and as being one of the stripes in that rainbow, I was grateful for it. People whom it annoyed, I wonder what they have against people who are gay that it bothered them so damned much.

As for the rest...I couldn't have said it better.
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« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2010, 09:16:48 pm »

I just think his head is too far up his own arse. It seems to me that all he really likes is the credit and adulation that comes with the gig. He tries so hard to make himself look clever with all his wibbly wobbly crap that he sacrifices the rest of the story just so it can seem like he has written some intricate complicated drama. Thing is, if you scratch the surface then very little of it actually makes sense. He just seems to think that if he makes it confusing enough then we wont notice. He has a total of two plot devices. Its either all wibbly wobbly and nonsensical or he takes a girl and lets us see her at various points in her life. Step forward Rainette, River, Amy and whatever her name is in the christmas special played by that singer, who we shall be visiting at several points in her life. The only thing that is worse is when he mixes his two plot points together to give us one of his 'epics'
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« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2010, 12:23:09 am »

I just think his head is too far up his own arse. It seems to me that all he really likes is the credit and adulation that comes with the gig. He tries so hard to make himself look clever with all his wibbly wobbly crap that he sacrifices the rest of the story just so it can seem like he has written some intricate complicated drama. Thing is, if you scratch the surface then very little of it actually makes sense. He just seems to think that if he makes it confusing enough then we wont notice. He has a total of two plot devices. Its either all wibbly wobbly and nonsensical or he takes a girl and lets us see her at various points in her life. Step forward Rainette, River, Amy and whatever her name is in the christmas special played by that singer, who we shall be visiting at several points in her life. The only thing that is worse is when he mixes his two plot points together to give us one of his 'epics'

That's pretty much it in a nutshell. The only good eps he's had are Empty Child/Doctor Dances and Blink--and Blink was a Doctor-lite so he didn't have to do too much genuine Doctor Who.

I utterly dread seeing what crap we have in store in regards to Amy and River. He seems to love using women as 2D plot devices.
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« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2010, 02:34:48 pm »

Anyone see the latest interview with him about "bad girl Amy"?

If I didn't dislike him before, I certainly do now.
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« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2010, 01:19:28 pm »

I thought I was one of few to dislike Moffat Tongue
Everyone is talking so good about his writing, but apart from the episodes he wrote in series 1-4, which I thought were quite good, it's gone downhill in series 5. The Hungry Earth & Cold Blood were terribly boring, and Time of The Angels & Flesh And Stone have ruined the Weeping Angels for me...
I haven't read interviews with him, except the one were he drags down the classic series, so I don't have an opinion about him as a person, but from what I read here he seems rather egocentric.
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« Reply #16 on: November 15, 2010, 04:55:33 pm »

I thought I was one of few to dislike Moffat Tongue

Nope, a slow but growing movement began from GitF onwards, and Forest of the Dead/Silence in the Library cemented it for many. Then we got some hold outs from those who took one look at S5 and wondered what happened to their Lord and Savior of Who....
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« Reply #17 on: November 16, 2010, 10:26:48 pm »

I think he has run the show into the ground personally

Agreed! Can't stay the guy personally, smug & irritating like loads of his characters, I want him gone & want RTD back!
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« Reply #18 on: November 16, 2010, 10:40:02 pm »

"I am definitely coming from a place of "I've been burned and I absolutely hate River's char to the point where dealing with her is an aggravation I'd rather not subject myself to." I've already been disappointed beyond belief with the new series...
Totally willing to accept I could be turned around and really wish I could. But I am absolutely, positively sick of having River crammed down my throat and do not want the show to turn into "Doctor Who and River Song", and it looks like it's heading in that direction...."

I agree with Blue Rose in all of the above... The thought of River becoming a permanent or significant character in Who history makes me physically sick....
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« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2010, 12:49:55 pm »

It's why I'm glad for this thread--VERY nice not to be alone.

Beyond the Gaiman ep for next season I'm tuning out.
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