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Women in Doctor Who

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BlueRose
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« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2011, 02:05:57 pm »

The reason for the marriage thing is simply this: not every woman (or man) wants to get married. The cultural and often sexist assumption is that it's all women want and strive for, and it simply isn't true.
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BlueRose
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« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2011, 02:07:10 pm »

In any event, I don't think that I can be a coolheaded moderator and continue in this discussion, so other mods, feel free to pitch in. I'm already biting my tongue clean off, to be honest.
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« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2011, 02:18:59 pm »

The reason for the marriage thing is simply this: not every woman (or man) wants to get married. The cultural and often sexist assumption is that it's all women want and strive for, and it simply isn't true.

I agree with that (I'm not married myself and don't feel any great desire to be) but my point is we shouldn't fall into the opposite assumption, that portraying characters getting married automatically equals a sexist cop-out.  The reasons are important.
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« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2011, 02:21:30 pm »

As BR has stated, this thread isnt for individual character/writer bashing or arguments based on that. There are relevent threads for that further down the main body of the forum where that type of conversation can be taken.

Discuss the writing, methods and arcs of 'Women in Doctor Who' to your hearts content but if it descends into rows between members then TheFifthDoctor and I will have to lock the thread up. That's not what this thread was created for and its not how we want to see it going. Please be respectful of other members opinions and points of view when posting.
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« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2011, 03:20:03 pm »

I have pretty good reasons for feeling the way I do as a whole, and I'm not liking where this thread is heading in terms of its overall tone. We're going to have to remember that not every fan feels the same way about characters and writers, and that isn't a reflection on them, it's merely a different in opinion and perspective.

I just want to add to this, and I am by no means picking a fight with you or anyone, and I am choosing my words VERY carefully to make sure that I am not misunderstood, but I don't understand what you mean when you say you don't like 'where this thread is heading in terms of its overall tone'. I've just been reading back through it from the start, and the whole thread seems pretty even in tone. Some people are in the 'for' column and some are in the 'against' column, but nobody seems to be making it personal, which is a good thing, and aside from the differing opinions the thread has stayed largely on track. Not everyone agrees on the opinions, but nobody has made it unpleasant to read or uncomfortable for other members, regardless of what opinions they are posting. This thread has stayed mainly as a very adult conversation/debate on all sides.

In any event, I don't think that I can be a coolheaded moderator and continue in this discussion, so other mods, feel free to pitch in. I'm already biting my tongue clean off, to be honest.

This however, I don't understand at all. All of the opinions you have put across have been valid and well thought out. Nothing in them to provoke anyone but clearly stating your stance on the matter. Much as others, both from those who agree with you and disagree with you, have done exactly the same. So what I don't understand is where this post comes from. It is the only post in the whole thread which i would say has changed the tone and feel of it. But I don't understand the reasons why. I'm pretty sure that you don't have a problem with people having a different opinion to you or stating it, so I can't understand why you can't remain 'coolheaded' or why you are 'biting your tongue clean off' because there is nothing in here to provoke you.

Im not picking on you with this or attacking you in any way. I want that to be clear. And I do not want a hotheated reply for questioning you about it, it's just a genuine question about a post that stumped me and unless I ask you about it, I won't understand your reasoning behind it.
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« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2011, 09:29:07 pm »

I'm confused, has there been some posts removed from the thread maybe?  I'm not sure why the tone of it has been changed Sad
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« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2011, 01:24:30 pm »

Just a note to say that at the current time, no posts have been edited or removed and the thread remains completely intact. This could however change if things become too unfriendly, go against the rules or sway off topic. The thread is still open though, so please continue on with the conversation Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2011, 03:48:40 pm »

The reason for the marriage thing is simply this: not every woman (or man) wants to get married. The cultural and often sexist assumption is that it's all women want and strive for, and it simply isn't true.

But what does that have to do with Doctor Who. Its not been said in the show that anyone (with the exception of a comedic Benny Hill type scenario with Donna in The Runaway Bride) is only striving for marriage. And I think even Donna outgrew that because what she really wanted was something, anything, different and she stopped persuing marriage when she saw the adventures she could have in a platonic way with the Doctor. Lets not forget, that regardless of whether the Doctor wanted to, she laid the ground rules and said from the off that there would be no funny business.

I kind of see the angle you are coming from with your points, but it seems to me this has sort of become your own agenda and doesnt really have anything to do with the show. You have provided a link to an article showing Moffats views as a person, but nothing to say that he, or any other writer for that matter, has imprinted those feelings onto the show. In the last 5 years we have had Rose, who admittedly fell in love, but never once uttered the M word. We had Martha who instead of striving for marriage decided to remove herself from the situation completely and later married someone completely different off screen. Donna who gave up on the idea of marriage in favour of friendship and Amy who got married, but only after she had delayed it by running to the end of the universe and even then she only gave into it when her fiance died in her arms and she realised what she could lose if things hadnt been rewritten.

Nobody is saying that every woman (or man) is striving for marriage, but you seem to think, or at least that is how it comes across, that anyone who gets married or wants to get married is showing a weakness or is a product of sexist pressures and agendas, and that simply isnt the case. People in Doctor Who have gotten married, but NEVER has it been stated that as characters that is all they strive for, and through watching exactly the same show as everyone else in this thread, I would say it hasn't been implied either
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« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2012, 02:51:00 pm »

The last post in this thread was a year ago. A year ago today actually, so I realise I am late to the party, but this is one of the more interesting discussions I have seen and I wanted to dig it up to add my opinion to the mix.

Reading through everyones posts from the beginning and not being caught in the heat of the moment with the discussion as others possibly were, there were a few things that stood out to me. Firstly, BlueRose made some valid points in what she was saying about the characters, however, her comments very much made it seem that only single, independent women can be strong characters and anyone partnered up or married automatically is seen as weak. What I can't grasp is why they have to be mutually exclusive. Can a married woman not be strong and independent? Can a sinlge woman not be weak? Can a strong minded career woman not strive to settle down with a family? Can a married woman no longer go out and chase her goals without her husbands say so?

Amy and Rory are our best examples in Doctor Who. Firstly, Moffat took the whole idea of the strong male and marriage obsessed woman and spun it on it's head. We have Rory following Amy around the stars because he loves her, not because he wants to. I don't even think he particularly likes the Doctor, but for whatever reasons, be it jealousy, paranoia or just straight up love for his wife, he has given up what he wanted to do to chase her dreams. Not as her boyfriend. Not as the school geek with a crush on her, but as her husband. They are married, and if anything Amy has just become more strong minded than ever.

To go back to the very beginning for a second, we have to remember Amy went travelling as a way to escape her upcoming wedding. She wanted to put it off for longer. Maybe she was unsure, unready or just wanted more single freedom. For whatever reason, she was running away from it. It took a while for her to realise just how much she loved Rory, but when she got there she was happy to get married and start that new chapter of her life. That, however, hasn't meant that she has settled down in Leadworth. It hasn't sent her running to get a job or being a stay at home mum. She is having her cake and eating it. She has the man she loves and is going out and doing exactly what she wants to do. Far from being sexist, I can't think of a better example of a strong woman in the show. She literally has it all. Isn't that exactly the opposite of the original sexism point? Rather than being sexist and saying 'women strive to marry and settle down', what the writers have done is said 'hey look, you can have it all, after all. You don't have to be one or the other. There is nothing wrong with being a wife and a mother and a career woman and a space traveller'. That to me seems like a far stronger and far more positive and emotionally stable role model than a character that says 'Hey, I don't need a man. I have a job instead'. The most ironic thing about BlueRose's sexism argument is that hers seems to be the most sexist of the lot. Being single and unmarried doesn't make you stronger. It makes you single and unmarried. Just as marrying a character off doesn't make her seem weaker, it just makes her married. There is nothing weak or wrong about wanting that.

A comment was made earlier in the thread that if it turned out that River was indeed married to the Doctor it would weaken the character. We know now that she is, and she is absolutely no less badass as a result of that. She just happens to be married. Maybe, just maybe, because she wants to be. As a woman I don't need to act a certain way or do a certain thing to look strong to the outside world. I have nothing to prove to anyone. I have a partner that perhaps I will marry one day, perhaps I won't. I have a degree and a job and I don't plan on sacrificing one for the other. I'm also strong and badass. Because I choose to be and not because I conform or go against societies views on how a woman should or shouldn't be. Yes, throughout the 50 years of Doctor who there have been instances of sexism, but Amy and River are certainly not victims of it.
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